Fired in Week 1 on The Apprentice – How Do You Bounce Back?

🔥 Beyond The Boardroom with Aleksandra King – Michelle Niziol: From The Apprentice to Building a Business Empire

What happens when you get fired in week one of The Apprentice? If you’re Michelle Niziol, you don’t dwell on it—you build a multi-million-pound business empire instead!

In this episode, Michelle joins me to talk about bouncing back from setbacks, dominating in business as a woman, and proving everyone wrong. She shares how she went from being a week-one casualty on The Apprentice (where I may have played a tiny role in her firing 😏) to running seven successful businesses.

We dive into:
💼 The reality of The Apprentice – what really happens behind the scenes
💡 Secrets to entrepreneurial success – how Michelle built her empire
🧠 Mental resilience & therapy – why every entrepreneur should work on themselves
💪 Women in business – overcoming challenges and thriving in male-dominated industries

And, of course, we answer the big question: Would Lord Sugar be crying if he saw where Michelle is now?

This is an inspiring, no-nonsense conversation filled with business insights, hard truths, and a few Apprentice revelations you won’t want to miss!

The views expressed by guests are their own and do not reflect those of Aleksandra King, the podcast, or its producers. This podcast is for entertainment only.

Transcript

 In this episode, I interview Michelle Nizzle, who was actually on the same series of Apprentice as I was. Now, I might have been a little bit responsible for Michelle getting fired in week one. However, Michelle isn't bothered because Michelle is running at least seven businesses. She has won multiple awards.

We go into everything about The Apprentice and how to succeed in business as a woman. We discuss mental health. We discuss what it's like to be a woman in business. and winning recipes for success. So tune in. 

Michelle, welcome to the podcast. Thank you for having me. I am so happy to have you in. I'll tell you the main reason I'm really happy  is because you're proving everyone wrong. You've gone out in week one on The Apprentice, but look at you, six, seven businesses that you're running, successful business woman.

Lord Sugar must be crying.  

Crying.  What happened? I was shocked to go out in week one, but at the same time I've made the most of it. Right. So let's go back a little bit. Why did you apply in the first place? I've, I've ran businesses. Since my early twenties. And you know, you could probably relate to this.

It's really lonely. And I was a female running businesses. So there wasn't back then. I certainly wasn't the only female entrepreneur, but there wasn't many of us certainly where I live in quite a small market town. So I did it because I was lonely, you know, because I really wanted to mix with other entrepreneurs and gauge myself against, you know.

How am I doing? Because I, you know, from a very early age, I've been the boss. So it's like, how can you compare yourself against other business owners? Where you go on, put yourself through the biggest TV show, you know, in the country and see, so for me it was a challenge. Like, could I actually get on the show?

And then how could I do on the show?  

So besides feeling that, you know, you were a bit different, what in your personality, really just be honest, gave you the courage to do this? 

I'm super competitive, so you know, if I'm gonna do something, I'm going through this process to win it. Right. Um, what people don't actually know is, I did actually apply for the show. 

Was it, it was the Olympic year. So I'd actually, yeah, I don't think you knew that, did you? No, I didn't. Hadn't made it through at that point, as you know, you never know you're on the show until you're on the show. 

Right. 

Um, so, but I, I'd made it through a few rounds and I thought, do you know what? I don't think I'm ready for this right now.

I didn't apply again until, was it about six years later? Um, and I just had this gut feeling. So I actually applied for The Apprentice five minutes before it closed. Right. So, literally, I think it was midnight was the closing time, um, and I just had this, I didn't even know that they were, the applications were out again.

Um, and I just come across it online, on social media, I think it was. Um, and I just knew. That I was going to be a candidate. So I just applied to get You just know these 

things. I just, 

it was just a gut feeling I said on the show. 

I spoke to a couple of other of the ex candidates and you just know. Yeah, you just know.

I did my application and I thought I'm in. So how did you find 

The interview process, you said difficult. I wish everyone could experience it because it was the hardest thing that I've ever had to do. You know, I remember having the, uh, meeting with a psychologist and I nearly didn't do the show. I nearly pulled out.

And the psychologist really put me through my paces because she said Do you, um, Michelle, put your baby to bed at every night? And I said, absolutely I do. And she said, he's not even gonna know who you are in the 12 week process. And that, I was just like, I can't. I went home and spoke to my husband and said, I can't do this.

Like, I can't do it. And he said, you are doing it. Because, literally, like, you, I'm not gonna put up with you.  I could have got on the show, I could have got on the show, but yeah, I nearly didn't do it because of that. 

What feelings did you 

experience when you got on the show? It was quite emotional. You know, I was made a project manager on the first task.

You were indeed. Yeah, that's how I got fired.  Never be project manager on the first time. No, never be project manager 

on the first time. But, you know, the I was, I was super emotional that day, so we had a wake up call at like 3am, and I had literally not slept the night before. And I remember waking up, going into the bathroom, doing my make up, and um, thinking, What have I let myself in for?

Yeah. Overwhelming, 

isn't it? 

Overwhelming, yeah. The whole proc I mean, the whole process is set up to absolutely test you. And I think, again, what people don't see is we make silly mistakes on that show, because you are  literally pushed to your limits. 

Well, I think we make silly mistakes on the show, but the show is also, it's a TV production.

Yeah. I think which there is business within that, but it's also there for entertainment. So obviously the stress that's created and the scenarios that the pressure that you put on is deliberate. To kind of, you know, and as and the lack of family contact,  it's all deliberate to stress you out, which you would never have in real life.

But I did enjoy it. I really enjoyed it. I enjoyed the filming. I absolutely loved getting to know the production team. You know, that was my favorite part is I love creative people. So, you know, and in my world, in my job, in my industry, it's very much professional services. So it's finance. So yes, there are some people with creativity, but it's not the same as being around people that are making a TV show.

And that was for me, that was, that was. a blessing. I absolutely loved it and hence why since that show I've gone on to do as much TV and media work that I possibly can do because I just absolutely love the process. 

Okay, so what did you think of some of the other candidates? Let's be honest now. I thought  

Some obviously have got huge characters,  um, I wasn't there to be a celebrity, I've never wanted to be a celebrity, I've got zero interest in it.

I think when you go on a show like that you do attract a lot of media attention, but that's not why I did it, I did it for the experience, whereas I think there was some people on the show that obviously went in for different reasons.  

And do you think they were chosen and selected with that in mind?

That these are the celebrity people, these are the business people. I still, I 

still smart business people. I think every, and I think that's another thing that people don't understand about the show. Every single candidate you would have employed in your business. You know, that's 

right. You know, I, I agree with this, which is why I wanted this platform as well, because. 

It's true. Every single person that was there had something, something to them, either they were incredibly, actually most were good at sales, let's be clear, or everyone could sell. You wouldn't, you wouldn't make it on the show if you can't sell.  And but they all had some sort of business acumen and some were crazier than others.

Some were more, you know, professional, let's say some were a little bit more out there, but they all had something. 

The crazy thing for me to watch was. In the house, everybody's your mate, and then when it's filming, we're ruthless with each other, and the switch is immediate, and I found that brilliant because actually that's what I'm like in my business life, is in business, you have to turn it on sometimes and actually be someone that you're probably not Quite naturally.

So, um, you know, my husband always says he never would have married business Michelle, you know, he would have married Shelly and I think that that, that was the same dynamics on the show was when we were in the house, we're all friends, we're all getting on with each other. 

I have a slightly different take on that in that I am, I treat, I'm very much like my business, my clients, you know, whoever I'm working with, even professionally when I was working for people and now that I have my own business, I, Treat everyone in a similar way.

I do have this thing where it's, it's all family to me. And when someone's close to me, the clients are close to me. I bring them into my network and I, I did find that odd. the turning, but I kind of expected it, let's say, from some of the candidates. It's not necessarily what I would do, though. 

Yeah, I mean, I don't mean that, um, I'm still a really nice person at work.

It's just I'm a lot, uh, fiercer, I would say. That's not necessarily with clients. It's with, I think if you show any sign of weakness, say with the candidates you 

finished. 

Yeah, exactly. And I think that, you know, sadly, I've had to have a different type of facade where I'm an absolute real  softy at heart, you know, so I found it difficult in business.

You have to make decisions that not everybody likes. So that that's sort of what I mean. Um, so clients get to know almost Shelley.  And actually in the business world, you know, because otherwise people are coming after your business. People are coming after your clients, you know, um, and, and sadly I've had to behave in a way where you're very clear, you're very direct, um, so that people can't misunderstand or misinterpret what you're saying or where you're coming from.

Whereas at home, I'm not like that at all. I'm super fun and relaxed. 

Of course. And also when you're working with clients, a lot of these relationships. Last years, hopefully that's the goal, you know, 5, years. Um. And they get to 

know you the majority of my clients have been with me 20 years, you know, which is crazy awesome Been with me through my journey, and I think they've loved watching my journey I think that they're super proud that they've been a part of that, you know And also I think the comments that I get quite a lot is it hasn't gone to my head and I'm super grounded Yeah, and you are grounded, you know whether you know, even the clients where I might be doing like a 25 grand mortgage, I treat them exactly the same than a client where I'm doing a 5 million pound mortgage.

So although the difference in the money is obviously huge, um, every client to me is important and every client feels like they're my only client and that's what I've managed to retain to be able to do. And I think that is probably one of the secrets of the success of me running my business. You know, some of these clients have dealt with me 10 times over in the 20 year period, and I don't think for a second that they're going to stay with me again.

One minute, 

you're right at the top. Next minute, you're right down there. It can happen. Business is a risk. Yeah. It just is. Anything can change. Yeah. And also with your health, things like that. So you can never. Allow that, that sort of arrogance and complacency. No, I don't think that that's, there's a place for that in business.

No, you've gotta be prepared.  Absolute for the rollercoaster. 

Absolutely. But it's, that's what I love about business. So there was a few, uh, things I had to sort out on the way up here where emergencies, where, you know, clients have found a property and, and they desperately need something sorting right there and then, so then I'm calling around the agents and things and I think it's that, that keeps me going.

Do you know, do you 

think you, do you think you're addicted to stress?  

I think I handle stress really well. I don't try and see it as stress, I try and see it as a challenge. Right. And it's how to overcome those challenges. Um, and yeah, so I, I've worked with therapists, I've worked with psychologists. I would definitely recommend everybody needs therapy, even if you don't think you need therapy.

So you worked with a therapist to help you manage stress?  So they've taught you techniques to help you. 

Yeah, and it's all about controlling the way your thought process and actually also controlling. That you can't control other people's thought processes. Oh, that's a huge one. That was huge for me.

That's huge. That was huge. And actually. Because it's so tempting. Yeah. And actually it was working with a therapist that made me realize that, because my expectation levels on myself are so high, you know, incredibly high that I'm never going to meet them. That's my issue.  Um, and so, expectations on myself were super high, so expectations on my team were super high.

And actually working with a therapist made me see That good is good enough, and, and they work for me for a reason, you know, in the sense that  they're amazing, but I have to lower my expectations in the sense of Of them, 

you mean? 

Of them, and, and of myself, sometimes, because otherwise, if your expectations are so high, you'll never, you're always gonna feel defeated.

I think if I can deliver anything to any entrepreneur, male or female, it is, you have to work on yourself. So I've always been, you know, personal development's always been high on my agenda and really looking at what is it that I can improve on personally, you know, and so I've always gone into therapy sessions and gone, Oh my.

Goodness, I've done this or I think this about this person,  you know, can you please work with me on to, you know, I mean, the therapists have said they've never met anyone so honest or self aware. And I think you I think most people's issues I've come across is the fact that they're not self aware. And that actually, you will find it difficult to change unless you address it.

It's the issues 

that you have. So therapy, interesting, totally interesting and something that I'm definitely going to look into. You're on The Apprentice, you got on, brilliant interview process for all those months, you get in, you're buzzing, excited, competitive,  but then you get fired in week one.  How did you take that? 

Not very well.  I was just completely shocked and also, when I was going into the boardroom, I think a couple of people, you know, a couple of people in the production team had gone, Michelle you've got this, you ain't going anywhere. Yeah. So of course, I'd gone in really cocky, if I'm being honest. So really cocky, didn't say too much because I genuinely thought that he had a plan, he knew what the plan was, and I wasn't going anywhere.

You mean Lord Sugar? Yeah. Yeah. And, um, and actually that was, um, the biggest mistake that I made was, again, learning from that in business is don't ever be complacent. Don't ever take things for granted. So I'd sort of gone in and not really done too much in the boardroom. So when he fired me, it just felt absolutely, yeah, I was in absolute shock.

So it was the next, I think it was the next morning I get my phone back. And so I ring my, my husband was obviously the first call that I made. Yes. And he was like, oh, thank God for that. Um, cause like literally being at home. He needed you. Yeah, he needed me. And so, you know, obviously a week was enough for him.

So he was like, well done. Like really proud of you, but so glad you're coming home. Yeah. And then I rang my little sister. And, and she works for me in my businesses, and she's like literally my biggest supporter. And I rang her and she was just like screaming. She's like, oh my God, you know, Lord Sugar, stop the show because he knows he's seen you

And he, he's made you the winner already after one week. And I was just like, I was like, Lindsay, honestly. He hasn't, I've been kicked out, but she so believed in me, so sweet, and I love telling that story because I'm just like, as if he's going to stop filming her, 

you know. It sounds like you had the right support network around you, and then you sort of licked your wounds didn't you, and then got up again.

Yeah, do you know what, because obviously you, you know, you're not allowed to tell anyone and the close people that you are allowed to tell, so I told a couple of people in my team are allowed to know. I think my accountant was allowed to know and my immediate family, because obviously you've got to make up a story as to where, why you're going to go away for three months and no one's going to see you.

So, um, obviously I, I'd called the members of my team and, um, you know, they, they were shocked, but obviously really chuffed that I'd done it. And then I couldn't see anyone for a couple of days. So like, literally I went home, spent a couple of days at home, just trying to like process and then I booked a holiday to Disney world.

straight away. What a good idea. Yeah. So yeah, that was it. I was 

like, distraction. Yeah, absolutely. That's a tactic. I mean, instead of sitting there sort of letting things get into your head too much and sort of, yeah, you know, off you go to Disney World. 

Yeah. And actually the, um, the producers were there, you know, helping me pack my stuff.

Um, when I left the show and they said something, um, that has always stayed with me. They said, Michelle, you never appreciate what you've achieved so far in life. Um, and it was after that that I got a therapist for the first time. Even if I'd have won, I think it would have been the same, you know. I've done it, I've achieved it, let's move on.

So for ages, for probably a couple of years, I couldn't even talk about it. 

Yeah, 

same 

actually. Really? It was quite hard, yeah. Yeah. 

And now it's like, you know, no, that's a big part of my journey. I'm super proud of that journey. And it wasn't that I wasn't ever proud of it. It was just that through therapy, I've learned. 

They're actually living in the moment  and actually I always wanted to be present and I wanted to, you know, people are going, oh, but you're so successful and, and I never felt successful, you know, I never felt like I'd achieved anything. So that's why I was always like, right, I'm done with that. Let's move on.

I've got to always go bigger and better. 

I don't know. Not everyone goes in with that mindset, though, to be fair, that I'm going to win. Some go in and have the, obviously I want to go in and be famous. I'm going to go, go see how it goes. Not everyone is I'm going to win but obviously the more competitive you are the more you want to win 

Yeah, for me, it 

was 

not an option not to win Yeah, and I think that's why I was so devastated when I but week one I think the thought process was as you know, like it wasn't my choice to be project manager You know my family the only thing my family said to me when I went in was do not be project manager week one So I got voted to be project manager  and, um, you know, I didn't ask for it and actually spent hours 

deliberating.

I was like, no, no, no, no, no. I think it was a tactic. Um, because no one really wanted to be project manager. It was very brave of you. Yeah. I suppose that's a good. Well, do you know what I thought? So in 

the end I gave in because I was like, do you know what if I am gonna go out of this process, I'm gonna go out leading from the front because I am a leader, I'm a natural leader and I thought where I would have regretted the, the process is if I'd got kicked out and just been hiding around in the background.

Like I'm not a background person. Oh, no, no, no. So, you know, for me, it was like 

hanging around. Yeah. 

Hanging around, not doing anything and hiding in, in the background until like week, you know, the end of the process. Terrible. 

Yeah. You know, 

that's not my style. So I was like, do you know what? Um, if I'm, if I'm gonna go and I'm going to be fired, I'm going to be project manager.

Cause that's the way to go out. 

Yeah. So now that you've had your therapy, what has the apprentice. Taught you about yourself? It taught 

me to slow down. So I was on the verge. The reason I got a therapist was I was on the verge of setting up another business, which would've been my eighth company. Okay. Um, and I actually at this point, I'd had my daughter Isabella, and I thought when the children are older.

Because you think, oh, you're doing it for them all the time. It's just an excuse. For me, it was about not facing up to actually being a mum is really hard. Um, you know, and running businesses for me was giving me self, you know, gratification. And also it meant that I didn't have to face up to actually being a parent is really hard.

And I've not really, you know, no one. It teaches you how to be a parent, you know, there's no parent school. And I remember sitting there one day and just sort of going, you know, I don't want the kids to be 18 and gone, oh, hasn't mum got a successful business? But actually I've spent no time with her. Oh, it's 

so hard, yeah.

So, that was the point, but being a mum wasn't natural for me, because all I'd ever known was this business treadmill.  Of, you know, running businesses and, um, just more, more, more, more, more, not necessarily more money. That was the thing. It wasn't really about the money for me. It was about the success and how, you know, I'd never felt good enough.

Genuinely now, I am a lot more present than I ever have been. I pick my children up from school and it's just about, you know, being able to, uh, Put them first so that obviously when they are older, 

yeah, 

you know, you know my parents they were Had very successful careers not entrepreneurial at all But in the civil service and I think really just the trauma came from  When I was 17, they you know, they sadly went through a divorce.

They get on absolutely fine now, but there was a divorce and then you know The trauma started with we nearly lost our house. So it got it was on the brink of repossession Okay, and the car did get repossessed the car that I was driving. Yeah horrible And that's the trauma is that we'd lost absolutely everything and I didn't have a choice to I had to drop out of A levels, I had to get, you know, I worked three jobs, um, put a roof over mine and my little sister's head and that's why we're so close and she works with me in my businesses.

Um, and that's where the drive came from and that's why I had to unpick because my fear was always like, that's never going to happen to me. So, you know, obviously watching your parents go through that where, you know, they nearly lost their house. And I think that's why I went into property and finance is because your home is your castle.

It's what makes me feel safe. So from, you know, that age, I was like, I wanted this big 

house. I can relate. Yeah. 

You know, I wanted a big house where I would feel safe, you know, it's your nest. Yeah. It's your nest. And I think that that's where I think that's where my skillset comes in my job because I've had that trauma.

So what's going through your head? At that 

point, 

your parents are divorced, you know, this is never happening to me. Um, so I waited till a lot later in life to have children till I was financially secure. Um, also, you know, that's the reason for me setting up my businesses in property and finance is to make sure that I was secure, make sure that every single one of my clients.

never went through that process of, you know, uh, not having anything. 

Yeah, you've got a personal reason. Yeah. And, and trauma in a way that you've taken to become something positive that's driving you. I think also ethically, morally. your values are in the 

right place. Yeah. So I thought by setting up all these businesses, you know, then I would never go through the financial crisis that my parents went through.

Um, and so sadly I had to hire helping therapy to stop me from setting up businesses because that's all I'd ever know. It became a thing. Yeah. It became an addiction. It became an addiction. It became an addiction because like when you've, when you've experienced that. You never want to go through that again.

So my thing was, the only thing I knew, and I am really good at making money, you know, so my thing was, make money, make money, make money. It will solve problems. It will solve problems and make me feel safe, you know. And now getting off that treadmill, you know, and actually I thought, if I get off this treadmill, Then I'm not going to be successful anymore.

No one will think I'm successful if I don't set up another business, you know. And actually then learning that that actually, I think since doing that and getting off that treadmill and not setting up any more businesses and focusing on the businesses that I've got, I think I've become more successful.

So let's, what businesses do you have? Let's list them. So yeah, so I've got a, um, estate agency. Right. A letting agency. Right. Um, a commercial mortgage brokerage, a residential mortgage brokerage, an insurance brokerage. And then I've got a, um, portfolio, so property portfolio building company where, you know, I would buy you 10 houses and completely manage them for you.

That's 

insane. That's just crazy. So what qualities, what essential qualities do you need to possess?  to be able to run a business successfully, do you think? 

I think number one is the passion for it. So you can see, you know, with my businesses, it's the passion to get you to own your own home, because that's what made me feel safe.

And I know it'll make you feel safe. Um, But so, so having the passion for it, there's absolutely no point in running a business unless you are passionate about it because there's gonna be so many down times. So as long as you've got that, you know, the passion for what you're doing, whether it's, you know, hairdressing or makeup artist or photography, if you love it.

And you're willing to put your all into it, then you're going to be successful. 

Have you ever experienced a situation, um, over the years running your own businesses where being a woman has actually proven to be a hindrance in any way? 

Have you found that? 

Do 

you know what? I've been super lucky. I was, um Um, I had like one job before I set up my own businesses and that was in a completely male dominated industry.

What was it? What industry? It was a roofing company and I'm still, they're still my family to this day. So actually they held me in such high regard, the, my journey into entrepreneurialism was actually really good because I was a well respected, very young female. Um, I was almost like the most respected in that business at such a young age.

That gave me a bit of a false, um, economy when it came to business. So when I moved into running my own business, apart from people would walk into my office, especially older men. 

Yeah. 

And not take me seriously. Oh, really? Initially. Initially. How did you know they weren't taking you seriously? Just the questions that they'd ask and they'd almost Like what?

Like just silly things. Just testing your knowledge. So I've had, yeah, I've had a lot of men over the years that have basically gone, you need to prove that you know what you're talking about. But the minute then, you know what you're talking about, and knowledge is power, then that all seemed to drop, but I've been quite lucky.

I think it's because, you know, I don't  Yeah, I haven't really put up with it. So the minute I clock that you don't think I know what I'm talking about, or you might be thinking I've got daughters or granddaughters your age, I literally turn it on so much that they would then in two minutes 

know. 

So it's 

not really lucky.

It's not really lucky. And I love the way that you, you, again, you're coming at this from a position of control in a positive way. You are controlling the narrative and you see someone. And they're not really taking you seriously. And you take, you understand that, you're aware of it. And then you turn it around.

You're controlling that conversation. Yeah, and also you can't play the victim. 

No, I don't ever play the victim. You know, that is that's on them. So their thought process. Yeah, come on. What is Michelle? Yeah,  I've always loved but that's sales anyway. Yeah, and I've always loved proving you wrong. Yes So the minute I clock that you think that you know, I'm not you know You think I'm not good or whatever or don't know what I'm talking about Oh, literally I take pleasure out of making you realize that I do know what I'm talking about and that I'm a full middle bill business person.

Yeah. I had And don't ever underestimate me. Thats it, you know? And, um, that's it. 

I had a similar situation in the IT industry. Yeah. Where I started off in telecommunications and billing and analysis and all these things. And I walked into the office and it was literally 99% male consultants. And, um, I walk in there and uh, and it's like, well, you don't.

Look like an IT person. You don't talk like an IT person. What do you know about IT? And that's when also the serious mode comes in. Right. I'll show you. Yeah, I'll show you. And then, and then they, they quickly learn, don't they? Who they're dealing with. I don't really get upset about it if it's a male or woman, because I think anyone's going to have their backup if you're asking them.

You know, if you could try to convince him to buy a car or whatever, I don't know, why would I want that car? It's the same thing. Maybe I think women do get it a little bit hard, especially in male dominated industries, like, you know,  we talk about roofing, construction. It, that's fair. Um, you have to work a little bit harder maybe.

Yeah, I think less now because obviously we're a bit more out there. Um, and people are taking us a bit more seriously, but I've always loved it. I've always loved, I've always taken advantage of being the only female in the room. You know, I got a lot of business by doing that it sort of many years ago or, you know, people then will notice you because you're not in a gray suit.

Um, so, you know, now I think that Yeah, I think it's slightly easier for women now, but I've never seen it as a disadvantage. I've always seen it as a challenge. What about the gender gap?  Persistent gender wage gap that we've 

got 

going on. Yeah, I mean  Running my own business, I've never really experienced that in a professional capacity.

Because I've, you know, I've had pretty much one job and to be fair, he overpaid me. I wasn't, he was paying me way more money than I was actually worth at the time. So personally, I've not actually experienced it. But obviously from what I've seen and heard in the press. Um, I don't agree with it, you know, it's the women, you know, we shouldn't be seen as women and men.

We should be seen as, you know, can you do the job? Can you deliver irrelevant of who you are? And 

I think women, you know, I've seen this in consulting in the corporate world of consulting, you know, there's a floor full of consultants and the men are earning basically double what the women are earning, same job, same everything.

And I think. Looking into it a bit more. I'm quite analytical about these things. And I'm, I've noticed that women aren't asking for as much money as men, men are more confident, even though some of them might have even less skills, let's say, or even the same, even the same, um, women aren't asking for as much as men because they feel, Oh, I'm not quite ready.

They're perfectionists. They kind of thinking, you know, I need to get into the job. Then I'll ask for more. Whereas men are more, a little bit more gutsy in that way. And I think women need to stop that. Yeah, and ask hi and You'll be surprised you get it, 

but also companies shouldn't be even waiting for them to ask in my opinion You know, I think people talk In a corporate world, you know you you might be a female You might be sitting next to a male like companies need to take responsibility here and go irrelevant of gender 

That is the 

pay grade  

And there's also a negotiation that goes on because then they might present a salary and then you go, well, I, you know, I'm definitely worth more than that because of this business and men are more likely to negotiate.

I think what they have been traditionally, and I think women just need to take that position of power and go, well, actually. I am worth that, and I want to, I'm going to negotiate this, because I feel like I 

deserve that. But I do think it is, um, employers responsibilities as well, like I know, my husband has a very large business, and I know that he, you know, the role is the role, and it is benchmark paid, and irrelevant of whether you're male or female, it's what you're bringing to the table, and he's really good at, you know, he doesn't have any gender.

pay issues in his business. And that's where I think, you know, companies do need to look at their own policies and pay. Yeah. Have a look, have a look and just make sure that everyone, everyone on the same level, whether irrelevant of gender is paid. You know the same, but yeah, that's women not  You know, like you said not asking and possibly believing that they're worth it Which again is another thing where we have to instill more confidence And this is the journey that I'm on at the moment is, you know, I've never necessarily suffered with You know, a lack of confidence in anything.

I'm probably slightly overconfident sometimes, but it's about that can be taught. I have taught so many women in my business to be at the forefront, to, you know, be open. And I think people misunderstand confidence for arrogance and there's a very fine line, but actually it can be taught, um, you know, so that you do speak up.

This stuff works. Yeah. This actually works. People like the confidence, I think. And actually if you fight, you shouldn't have to fight for what you're worth, but at the same time, you know, people do like the directness and actually if you're saying that you're worth it, then you must be worth it.  You know, but I think that, I think a lot of women struggle with that.

That's the journey I've been on with the females that I've employed. The amount of training and development that I spend on the confidence issues has been insane. Yeah, confidence 

issues for sure. And this leads me into my next question, which is the ongoing debate about underrepresentation of women in leadership positions.

That is something we're still seeing today. It is still a fact. Why? Why is this even happening?  

again, I think women just are not putting themselves forward. Also, it's the whole work life balance, isn't it? You know? Yeah. Organizations need to look at 'cause because even myself and my, my team, you know, a lot of my team are moms.

Um, it's about the what support is, uh, employ employers, giving, you know, parents and still, I'm not saying that this is all the time, but still it's a lot of. Mothers that want to spend a lot more time with their children. And I'm trying not to be sexist there. But I certainly know out of myself and my husband, he loves spending time with our children.

But it's definitely me that wants to spend more of the working day with my children. You know, so I can't vouch for everybody. But that's, in our family, that's definitely, um, the way it goes. And I think Employers being flexible around that, you know, and making sure that leadership positions offer some sort of flexibility.

I think, you know, going back to The Apprentice, I think my issue with the culture around it, even though that's a TV production, I get it, it's TV,  I don't really want to necessarily  fuel or, or be part of full time, anything that takes that balance away. Anything that skews too much to the other side where it's deliberate stress and it's deliberate.

No, you can't see your family as if that's a good thing, even in the name of entertainment. I mean, what is the problem  with picking up the phone and talking to your kid for four minutes? What is the problem? I just don't feel that that's maybe I understand that it's there to stress, but anything that tips the balance, like it becomes unnatural and too. 

Unnecessarily high stress for me, it's not something, and I certainly wouldn't want to work with anyone long term that has that mindset, and I think it wouldn't 

work. At the point in time where I was on the show,  I was not in that present mindset with children. 

Now I wouldn't do the show. There is something in that, that there are these stereotypes and there's almost two groups of women and either you're.

You know, strong and tough and then you, you know, you labeled unfair labeling or then you're maybe softer and a bit more meek in some ways  Dare I say you sexy or something? God forbid. Then you're not taken seriously at all. Yeah  What do you think about this? 

I think the impression that people get of me is very they're super intimidated Which I've always found because I don't get labeled with the sexy. 

Okay, so, so, uh, so what labeling have you, have you received labeling? I think, I think the whole intimidation. So people think I'm up myself because I think that's the label that someone who is portrayed to be successful is. And it's when. You meet me that you actually go. Oh, she's so normal, you know, and and actually so I think the perception is Very different to the the real me because I think again people, you know, if it was a successful man, you wouldn't think Oh, he's up himself.

You just think, oh, how successful he is. How wonderful. But I think because a woman is driven, you know, you automatically, or this is the stigma that I get attached with, is that unless you know me, you think that I'm up myself and I'm better than you and, you know, which couldn't be further from the truth.

And I think that's sad. I do think that's sad. Whereas actually, when I meet or see or admire a successful woman,  I don't think those things. I think, you know, I'm in awe of you, you know, Oprah Winfrey. I mean, Oprah Winfrey doesn't come across intimidating. So, you know, she's probably the most successful businesswoman on the planet.

And I idolize her, you know, she's one of my idols. Yes. But she manages to do it in such a way where it's humble and it's soft and it's, 

she disarms. Yeah. 

Yeah. She disarms. And, um, you know, so I'm trying to work on that because a lot of the, you know, people who don't know me necessarily think that, you know, I can be quite intimidating.

And I think that that's their perception of me rather than actually when they do get to know me, they go, Oh, actually you're really quite funny and you're friendly and 

you're, you know, quite an interesting one because, um, I suppose it depends on your situation as well. So maybe if there's  some insecurities, or, you know, then you feel a bit like, Oh, I don't, you know, but if you're doing things yourself, and also I think what women need to realize what  You can be inspired and you can be driven by another woman's success too, you know, absolutely Why don't you rub off on each other?

Absolutely, 

but I think let's go, you know, I think women who are confident I think you're absolutely right. It comes from insecurities So obviously I meet try and network with business women all the time and I'm princess trust ambassador So I'm pretty much one of the only non celebrities in The princess trust ambassadorship and they certainly don't think I'm intimidating because they're so successful, you know, and they don't have, I'm sure they've got their own insecurities because haven't we all, but, um, you know, I think it is, I think it does come down to, you know, women who are really secure in themselves.

They actually, you know, they go, Oh, what can I learn from? Michelle. And also I'm doing the same thing. You know, you always want to be in a room where you're not the top one. You lift it up. Yeah. You lift it up and you pull together. And I love meeting, I mean, I have a Be Empowering Entrepreneur where I do networking for business women and that is purely to get in a room with like minded women like myself.

So you can all sort of, you know, um, help each other, lift each other up, support 

each other. And I think these kind of podcasts and getting out there and talking to women and normalizing them. A confident woman, you know, and seeing that as a very, very good thing is something that should be continuing.

Yeah, absolutely. And this is why I'm on a bit of a mission and, uh, you know, doing loads of PR and media at the moment. One, because, you know, I've got nothing to prove. Two, I think by sharing my story, particularly around, you know, working with therapists and psychologists, that there should be no stigma attached to it.

And actually it's only going to benefit yourself. And for any women out there that, you know, are working mums. You know, um, whether they're an employee or running their own business, that actually you can do it. You can, you know, still be present if you work, if you work on it. You definitely can. And have that work life balance, but still be super successful at the same time.

So you can be a mum. and still run businesses and not, one of those always sort of above the other at some point in time. I'm not saying I'm perfect with it by any stretch, but I'm getting there and I'm really learning to, you know, not beat myself up about.  You know, not being present sometimes or work taking a backseat sometimes.

Do you have a quote or anything that you look to that inspires you in any way that you can share? Um,  

I think it's more about, you know, money doesn't bring you success. Changing people's lives bring you success. And it's Michelle Obama said something along those lines. Don't totally quote me, but she very much and I look up to her.

I think she's an inspirational woman. Um, and I think, you know, if you, I think if you focus on the money, I think that could be a little bit of a downfall. I think if you focus on the, what change are you going to bring to someone's life, I think the money will just come. That, that's my, that's the path I've always followed and, and that is the path that I've been successful at. 

Michelle, it's been amazing speaking to you. Thanks so much 

for coming 

today.