What’s it like to argue with Trump?

From The Apprentice to Leadership & Integrity: Gene Folkes on Trump, Business, and Life Beyond

Join Beyond the Boardroom with Aleksandra King as we delve into the extraordinary story of Gene Folkes, former U.S. Army serviceman, corporate leader, and The Apprentice contestant who took a stand against Donald Trump in the boardroom. This episode explores Gene’s remarkable journey, offering candid insights on leadership, integrity, and navigating the challenges of staying authentic in high-pressure environments.

In this episode, we discuss:

• What it was like to compete under Trump’s scrutiny on The Apprentice.
• The courage it takes to challenge stereotypes and remain true to your values.
• The personal and professional cost of choosing integrity over reality TV fame.
• Gene’s transition from military service to leadership in the corporate world.
• Practical lessons on confidence, mentorship, and ethical leadership.

Key Moments:

• 3:15 – Behind the scenes of The Apprentice: Gene’s unconventional audition story.
• 8:45 – A showdown with Trump: Leadership lessons from the boardroom.
• 15:30 – Overcoming stereotypes and taking control of your narrative.
• 22:10 – Mentorship and leadership insights from a military and corporate perspective.
• 32:00 – The price of integrity: Why Gene refused to compromise his values.
• 42:15 – Closing reflections and Gene’s upcoming ventures.

Why Listen?
Whether you’re an aspiring leader, a fan of The Apprentice, or intrigued by the intersection of reality TV, business ethics, and leadership, Gene’s story offers invaluable lessons and bold perspectives.

Don’t Miss Out:

• Gain behind-the-scenes insights into The Apprentice.
• Learn practical strategies for resilience, mentorship, and ethical leadership.
• Discover how authenticity shapes success in business and beyond.

🎧 Tune in now and be inspired to lead with integrity and confidence.

#Leadership #Integrity #Podcast #GeneFolkes #TheApprentice #DonaldTrump #BusinessEthics #AleksandraKing

Transcript

 This is a really interesting episode because we have Gene Fawkes, who was actually on the American Apprentice and he had a run in with Trump. So we are going to get into that. We're talking about a military guy versus one of the most powerful men in the world who wasn't president then, but believe you me, he was already a force to be reckoned with.

So tune in to find out what happened. 

Listen, thank you so much. For coming on Beyond the Boardroom podcast. I am delighted to have you for so many reasons. Apprentice, you've been on the U. S. version in 2010. 

Yes, 2010. 

Right. And I was on the UK version. So you had Trump, I had Lord Sugar. So that is a connection you don't get every day, both on Apprentice. 

And also I think we're both interested in politics on some level. So. You are the best guest to have on. Oh, thank 

you. You're the best host.  

So tell us a bit about your roots and how those influenced you. 

I am a product of a Jamaican father and American mother  having roots in both places. I think that comes with a unique perspective.

Um, globally, cause my family looks like the UN, right? My family has a history of service starting from my great grandmother to My grandmother, who was a foster parent, I think at one point she had 15 kids in her home. 

Really? So,  

yeah, yeah, my mother was the same way. And so, I went to an air show one time and fell in love with, um, the sharpness and the discipline and,  The civility of young military veterans and I acclimated into the Air Force and spent 10 years serving here and in Europe and honorably discharged and then became a recruiter and picked up, um,  that legacy of service.

And so I began to help young men and women matriculate into the military. And then when I got out of the military and went into corporate, I ended up doing the same thing, mentoring young men and women. 

Do you consider yourself a confident and driven person?  

Um, 

it's a tricky question, isn't it? You don't want to sound sort of, you know, but, you know, direct. 

Part of the problem is that we're not direct, right? I think there's a healthy way to say I'm a confident, driven person. I would say I'm confident in the fact that. I know my strengths and my weaknesses and I know that I'm ever evolving and growing and I'm comfortable and confident. The fact that even though I may not know everything,  but I know that I can figure it out.

I always make this joke. Do you want to get on an airplane with a pilot? This confident or not confident that he's gonna be able to land the plane? 

Yeah, of course. We 

want to go into surgery with.  a cocky surgeon with an impeccable track record, or the guy that's kind of unclear and not able to make the right decisions, then you might get the sucers left in.

You said something really interesting, which is about obviously the balance between the sort of being confident, but not being a narcissist. And I think, yeah, I think in that is you don't want also that empty confidence. You kind of have to earn your confidence. Even if, let's say you haven't got all the stars and you're not sort of qualified in something fully, if you have the sort of confidence that you think, you know what, I can ask, I can find out, I can get that information.

Yeah, 

no, it's simpatico. It's so weird that you came up with that, which, which Is not surprising. Um, I think confident people truly authentically confident people are not afraid to ask for help.  And I think that's a, uh, an epidemic within leadership, right? Um, you know, leaders are meant to replace themselves.

And yet we find ourselves, we have a rising young star and we want to challenge them. But that's not true leadership. True leadership is to replace myself without feeling threatened. 

With the military, there's a military regime. There's getting up very early. There's doing things you don't want to do.

There's taking orders. There's humbling yourself. Everyone's the same. What have you taken from that? 

I did 10 years in the Air Force. It was honor to be discharged. I was, uh, somewhat rebellious in a way. You would think that having spent so much time in the military,  That I would be pro military regime, and I am not that those skills are transferable into the civilian sector because there is a sense of honor and duty and integrity and responsibility.

I'm not saying that every military person is perfect, but I'm saying that within the military, um,  lifestyle, There is an expectation of brotherhood, sisterhood, that we kind of speak the same language and we know how to sort of, you know, have a little bit more self control when it comes to knowing when to question authority.

And then when it comes to knowing when to follow those orders, if something goes down, I at least have a framework from which to come from to do the best that I can to protect myself and other people. 

Apprentice. 

Yes.  

Why oh, why did you go on it?  

It was  2008, Alexandria. And, uh, I think I was working on a project.

Um, on a real estate project and I had some friends out in L. A. And they called me and they said, Hey, you know, there's a slot on the apprentice. And I said, sure, I'd be interested. I figured that the star of the apprentice was a real estate magnet. I had a 35Million dollar deal on the table. I needed another 5Million.

It just kind of made sense to me. Um, it really was like this, but they called me, they said, send in the tape. And then tell us who you are. And I did everything wrong,  right? Cause it was so last minute and I sent it to them and then they said, we're going to send you an airline ticket to fly out to LA to go through your background.

So 

they wanted a piece to camera. Sorry for, they wanted to  make sure that you can, is that, is that what happens with most of the candidates in America or no, that was an unusual thing. So normally they would go through some sort of interview process like we have in the UK, which takes. 

Right. That's what I'm saying.

Normally what happens is people apply for the program and then if you get invited, if they're interested, then what happens is they'll have you go through rounds of interviews. I didn't go through that process  because by the time I got there, a lot of the other 15 candidates had, had a recall that they had met doing the interviewing round at one slot.

And so mine was very unusual. They literally had just called me. I sent a tape and I didn't interview with anyone.  Right. I didn't, I didn't interview with any of the other candidates. No one in interviewing anybody. I didn't meet Donald. I didn't meet anyone. So they literally flew me out to LA. I went through psychological, you know how it goes, psychological, criminal background, hoax bank.

And then next, you know, I fly back. I was in Dallas, flew back to Dallas. And then I got a call and they said, pack your bags. When it's in the ticket and you're going to New York,  you've been accepted on the apprentice. What do you like to eat? And I was like, Oh, okay. So within two weeks, I had this whirlwind situation and I just ended up saying, let's do it.

And so I ended up flying to New York and, and, uh, going through that whole experience.  

Do you think Trump had a, had quite a say in that then? Did he sort of think, yeah, this guy can, can go on camera. He's, he's pretty good. Go for it. Cause he likes to just, um, sometimes use his instinct, I suppose. 

Yeah. From what I understand, he handpicked, um,  uh, me and, uh, I don't know why.

So, um, uh, and I hadn't had any encounters with him prior to that. So. Um, he has a lot of, because he owned the program, uh, I guess I think 50 percent of it. And he was an executive producer. He had say in who would come on the program and who wouldn't. 

Yeah. I mean, in the UK, it's literally.  Yeah. Well, probably it must be this in this way, similar in the U S that you, you got fast track there.

That was really quite cool. I think for you, and then for the rest of the,  the rest of the herd, you kind of have to go through this application process, people from around the country, go in all the cities, you have a central location and they go to these various central locations and there's hundreds and  hundreds of thousands of them.

And then there's different phases, different levels, you possibly can, you can be there for the whole day. Then you come back, then you come back again and then they just whittle it down, whittle it down, whittle it down, whittle it down. And I suppose the piece to camera, um, although I think they are filming you anyway, the whole time when they're doing this, but the actual conscious piece of camera, like we've got it now, it's only towards the end that that's like sort of the final, well, one of the final steps. 

There's a lot of hoops. There's a lot of Most people don't 

realize Alexandria, and I know, and I'm so glad talking to you because you can sort of, you can sort of breathe and  And, and, um, share this experience. And I don't know how difficult your post experience, your post Prince's experience has been, but it's interesting because, uh, and I know we're going to get to this at some point, but it's like, You know, people think you're,  it's so weird the reaction you get from people once they see you on sort of international television or in your country, like they recognize you, but they don't.

And then friendships can change and, you know, things can get somewhat challenging because, you know, there's this idea of, you know, celebrity, right. And you're just kind of like, no, I'm just a normal person that just decided to do X, Y, Z. And I think a lot of people don't realize.  the how, how grueling the, the selection process is.

You're talking about some of the, I mean, like on my episode, half of them were ivy league lawyers,  right? And I think that people don't realize  the pool from which  you know, there's so many talented people, right? And you have to have almost like this magic formula. I don't know if you felt that way, but you almost have to have like this magic formula that says I'm gonna bet on you and it can, you know, it can change your life.

In a way that's, that's interesting. Um, and, and it really, you know, you do have to be a confident driven person to good or bad to not let it get to you. 

Yeah, I think, um, I don't know if 

you found that. 

Yeah. I mean, I, I think, well, I think similarly here, anyone that actually makes it to the show has got something, you know, there might be, they all personalities that are big personalities for sure, but they've also got something business wise, even if they are a little bit out there and a little bit, you know, whatever. 

They have something, some sort of mechanism, some sort of business plan that's credible because of course the bigger brand, so the Trump brand, Lord Sugar, they wouldn't associate themselves with anyone that didn't have the right sort of something, whatever it is, to attach themselves. to even just coming on the program, they're very careful who they associate themselves with, because then you obviously become part of this brand.

Even now we're talking about it. There's this thing that will stick with you for the rest of your life, even if you don't want it, it's, it's, you know, it's with everyone that applies is good. And, um, but in the UK, they probably make fun of the contestants more like the production or more, um, brutal. Just like our media here is really like when they want to go, they will.

So over here, they've got no problem making you look really silly and whatever. I was quite lucky, but I have been interviewing quite a few candidates and some of them, you know, have struggled to find work afterwards or whatever, because they'd be made to look a certain way when they  anything, but they're very smart and credible people.

So, so what's it like in the U S do you think that they make the candidates look A little bit better. Um, or do they also sort of go for you?  

No, they don't. I think that  my experience, uh, was, you know, challenging because like we had just discussed, they got me raw  and, you know, you sign these contracts and non disclosures and, you know, you're so excited to be on the program and you're trying to read the fine print and do that whole thing.

And you don't realize that you're giving your life over to a large media organization. Who is in the business of getting ratings and they will do so by any means necessary. And so it's very, um, uh, similar. It's interesting that you said that about the UK, because I would think the UK would be nicer, but we're rough.

I don't know how they do it in the UK, but I know in the U S we didn't get to see our episodes. Right. We didn't get to see the process. And so I remember when, after the show started airing and, and I didn't really watch it very much because at the time I was so traumatized, um, we were asking each other questions like, I don't remember you being in that room or that's not exactly how that went down or, you know, cause they are filming, filming you all the time.

And so they literally get to draw a narrative.  And that narrative gets, it was brutal. I mean, the, you know, the gossip, the gossip columns and, um, the way that people would characterize you based on what you were saying or what you're doing a lot of times on, you know, cause they throw these tasks at you that you're just kind of, you know, scrambling.

And so they're, they're recording you even in times where you're not cognizant that they are. And then they might take that and insert that into, you know, a narrative that says you look like an idiot, right? And without any, um,  without any thought about  you have to go back into real life. The Apprentice is unique among all reality television shows, I believe. 

Because it's not a dating show. You take real business people who have worked their lives and in different vocations, there are real world consequences to how you're being portrayed that can ruin your life.  And you, right, make it very difficult for you to, you know, brush that off in a way, right. To where you're able to function in the, in, in the real world.

Well, the thing is, though, that when you're signing all these documents and the NDAs and all of that, that print, if you pay close attention, really what you're doing and you won't really know this.  In the true form until you're actually in it. But what you're doing is handing over control of your own brand to that bigger brand.

That brand has the PR behind them and all that stuff and the budget to protect, you know, in your case, it's the Trump brand with a, with a show. And in our case, it's the broad sugar brand. And then also the show, it's a BBC production. So there's obviously, there's a lot of PR that goes into it. And the loyalty And the budget is towards that you do not unless you are loaded and have your own PR people and protection, you are on your own, right?

We have not signed up for anyone making us look good. And I suppose the risk isn't that apparent until you're in it and you're realizing I quickly clocked very quickly. What, that it was more TV and less business very quickly,  you know, then you start to navigate and go, well, how can I take control back here?

And is it worth it? And there's millions of people watching and you're aware of, of the games being played and all of that, you know, without giving too much, you, you, you become quickly,  you know,  so it's, um, right, 

right. Well, I, well, I can,  I can give away quite a bit. I think you're right. In the sense that.

You know, I didn't go on the program to play a game.  I was just a guy who had left investment banking, who started a small firm and had a pretty sizable project. And it made sense to me at the time. What I did not anticipate  was everything that you just said. The fact of the matter is, is that there's these huge brands and they're not there to protect me.

They're really there for entertainment. And I didn't really expect it. them to be protective. Um, I saw it as an opportunity,  uh, good or bad to be on an international stage and sort of showcase who I am and what I can do. Now, obviously things didn't work out the way I planned because of my military background.

Um, uh, there's a saying that we have in Texas that says, I'm going to, I'm going to show you how the cow eats the cabbage. Right. And, um, you know, once I realized that I was playing a game because they would always try to coach me to say this and coach me to say that. And I'm like, I'm not doing that.  I think I was told once that I wasn't playing ball. 

Okay.  It became, um, a situation for me, Alexandra, to where I just didn't want to play.  Right. And I was not going to play and you can make me you're trying to get viewership up.  Um,  And you don't really care how you do it. That goes against how I look at business.  I'm not going to throw people into a pit just so I can walk over their bodies to do that.

And for what reason, right? Um, that was the tone at the time. And I remember having a  adversarial conversation with  and, uh, NBC and basically said, uh, in my military way, You know, F the Trump brand, F the apprentice brand and F the NBC brand. There's a gene folks brand that I've actually put into perspective over these last 30 or 40 years.

And when you're someone in America that looks like me, that becomes problematic because I've worked so hard to avoid those stereotypes. And I haven't done it with a chip on my shoulder or angry. I'm just know that if I focus on. Um, my competence is competency.  Whatever problems you have with me or not are not mine.

They're yours. Do you want to be successful and work around someone that has integrity and loyalty and can you get past yourself? Can I do that? And so NBC and I had this battle because they were portraying those very stereotypes that I've had to overcome. And it wasn't until I spoke to lawyers, cause we got really adversarial that I said, you guys are damaging my brain.

How do you want to play this? I don't care about an NDA. Nobody's shooting at me. So let's go. And they were completely silent. 

From what I've found, it just really depends like your headspace. Where is that at? Um, obviously there's an awareness of how you're being portrayed and whether that's successful or not successful and how that's going to look, but then there's also how much you, you wanted, I suppose, like the end goal.

What is it that I'm going for? What am I prepared to put on the table to get, to, to that point. Is that important? Am I prepared to put this onto the table to risk to get this thing? Or actually, do I not even want the reward? That's a very important question. And then that sort of together comes to, to determine.

the outcome, I guess, and whether you want to stay on and  I suppose your, your whole attitude towards that thing. So some really wanted it, you know, there was nothing else going on, let's say in their life at that point, no kids, no this, no that. And it's like, you know, I'm, I'm basically young and broken on the, on basically on the street and all in a, in a student hostel.

So, Let me just go for it. This is it. I'm going to put everything there. I'm just going to block out the noise. Yes. All this stuff is going on. Yes. They doing this. Yes. My, my, my brand is at risk, but you know what? I don't even have a proper brand anyway. I'm just going to go now. Let's rush and let's go. And then that sort of energy, I think.

older the contest, so, you know, there's a very different, big difference between someone who's 22, someone who's 32, someone who's 42. Your, your needs, your, your risk that you're prepared to take is, is all different.  Um, for me, you know, I, I had already had, you know, three little children at home. I was moving house and that I wasn't probably in the right frame for this.

However, the whole interview process and being on the show, that was all interesting. I enjoyed the tasks. I did well on them and all that, but you know,  you know, you kind of realize the gameplay in this and then you think, well.  Not for me. It 

depends on where you are. I did the same thing. I walked away, right?

Um, very  acrimoniously. Whenever you present someone with an opportunity,  if that, there are some people that are willing to do anything to make that opportunity work. Yeah, a 

hundred. 

I am not of that mind. I am not of that mindset.  And listen, I'm not saying that I'm some  angelic saint or whatever, because I'm not.

I'm a flawed human being like everyone else. But there are just certain things that I'm not willing to do. And I'm not going to kiss anybody's ring or, um, you know, expose myself just so I can get ahead when that doesn't really matter. And, you know, you and I, I think, you know, I had, I had, um, had a lot of respect for Donald Trump in the eighties as a young business student coming up.

And, you know, he's just real estate magnet. And I always tell people, be careful meeting your heroes. And, you know, he wrote this book and also stuff. And then I met him,  we had a one on one sit down  and this is not political, but personally I was just not impressed. I can respect, um, you know, what you've done.

I mean, if my father gave me 400 million, I hope I could flip that into something big, right? Because that's, that's Trump's story. He's not a self made billionaire. Um, and I would think that once you've, you can be sharp and you can be, um, shrewd, but you don't have to be cruel.  And that's what I felt.  I made the right call by saying, if you want to fire me, then F and fire me because I'm not doing that.

So what you 

said, and  that is what I said. Yeah. Yeah. And I think Don jr said this, he goes, so why did you just fall on your sword? Why did you just do that? Well, you're trying to lead me down a question, a path that. Does not align with what happened. I'm not going to just say yes. So I can stay on a program.

And by this point, I'm okay with walking away from it. So if you want to fire me, F and fire me, I don't care. That's exactly how that went. 

Yeah. So, yeah, I don't care how much money's on the table. I don't care what the opportunity looks like. And I, and I think that that's a,  that's a. A  reality television, um, lesson, I believe that we're facing and,  um, um, real in real business.  Right. This sort of lack of, you know, profits over people or whatever.

I don't care if you're a billionaire. I'm not doing that. So I'm, I'm out.  

So  what's that, what's that hard for you? 

Um, you know, he did one rare thing with me when I walked off. He says, you know, you didn't give me a trick, came down loose in his tie. It doesn't like to shake hands and stuff. Tall guy, taller than me.

And he said, you know, you really didn't give me a choice.  But to fire you, I said, I know,  right? So do I regret the way that I did it? Absolutely not. I do not. I do not regret the fact that, you know, I chose me that day. And I chose not to play the game. Um, I think what's been challenging has been his responses as if you guys are watching how Trump talks about his adversaries, uh, in the U S and when you are a person that has that sort of reach and that power and those resources, you know, it takes, it only takes a little bit of money to make, you know, your quote unquote adversary.

Um, and so I think what's been challenging has been, His attacks and the nature of those attacks and how he comes at it. My end, my attitude is I can run and hide or I can keep shining the light and, you know, do what I do did in the military is if there's danger, I'm gonna run, I'm gonna run towards a fire. 

So, no, I don't, I don't regret telling him to suck it. , he had a young lady come up in front of him in the boardroom 'cause you know it's a SAT and he had a twirl for him. We all went shopping because he wanted the women to be more provocative, right? That there's a camera on that somewhere. Somebody has that.

I thought you were an eloquent person, but this happened when there's a video out there that you see, I wear glasses, right? I wear bifocals and, and there's a video out there of me saying, Hey, I need to go get my glasses. I don't have them because I can't see the fine print on what you guys are asking me to read.

But the way that that was narrative was portrayed was as if I was an idiot with a, with a lifetime of public speaking, by the way,  an idiot who couldn't form a sentence.  And that those are all those racial tropes that come to, um, you know, that you sort of have unfortunately become familiar with, didn't want it trying to do a deal grateful for some of it at  the same time, I think to be insensitive.

or not.  Um, to other peo were comments about, you fired me, one of the pers for him, he was like, you  And then she said, you know, I work for you, Mr. Trump. She happened to look like me. So you just assume that, you know, these two people of color are a couple. What are you talking about? I 

can't speak about the, obviously with a racism thing.

I mean, that's, you know, you've got this experience. You've, you've heard what you've heard and seen what you've seen. I think on the women thing, um,  the thing about someone like him, the Trump, and I do say someone like, because  my. Dad, he's like a typical Polish dad. Some of the things that he says, and he loves women and beautiful and looking lovely and, you know, but he'll say things like that.

I know that in today's society, if he did speak  about what he says publicly, he'll be penciled. Then, then he'll, you know, I don't like you wear a skirt. Come on, wear a nice skirt. Show it, show your legs. If you've got pretty legs, show them, put on some high heels, you know, all those things Get  slaughtered and he doesn't mean harm by that.

I think sometimes, you know, sometimes we take things a little bit and I also think some of the things you, that like, you know, About the glasses and that. I think a lot of that is the whole production thing that you were sucked into where they make some TV and that TV will, you are going to be the lamb that comes to slaughter because that's a golden TV moment like that is what,  that is what you've signed when, when you got awful, it shouldn't happen. 

That's, I suppose, the interesting thing about this whole messed up situation. You know, this is what we're talking about. It's like, it's crazy. Yes, it is good TV. Yes, in a way, we want to see these people suffering and squirming, and that's why we watch the show. But then you're on it, and you're the one suffering and squirming, and then your reputation's affected, and then it's like, whoa, whoa. 

I'll say this about what you were saying about Trump and, And people of that ilk, you know, I always respect, I'm a candid person and I always respect people that are candid and I get his generation and I don't believe in cancel culture. Um, I think, you know, what I fought for were people's rights to disagree and be who they are and sure, the world's changed.

Do I think it's gone way too far the other way? Absolutely. Right? There's, there's, you know, there's misogyny  and then there's, you know, there's toxic masculinity. Look, I, in some ways, I respect,  um, just becomes a shocker. The fact that, you know, I did have a lot of respect for the way that he handled his businesses and he did offer me a position within his company out of all the 15 candidates.

Um, and, and I said no to that, but, uh, I also respect the fact that, you know, he's unafraid to speak his mind. That's why I said, I don't believe in sort of cancel culture, whether I agree with him or not. Right. Um, I think though, when you do it  in a way that's malicious, And meant to hurt people, then that needs to be addressed.

Trump knows exactly what he's saying, what he's doing.  I love the fact that he speaks his mind. He doesn't like when you push back, but I think there's a difference between someone like that. He's almost like a benevolent sexist or benevolent racist. And I think he's so  clueless in some sense on the potential, um,  Uh, responses that he would get. 

And he's so full of himself and he doesn't really care. And I don't think that's healthy.  

You know, listening to you, it's tough because I.  Obviously I'm in the UK. I watch a lot of the different media channels. I see what the BBC has to say. I'll listen to what Al Jazeera has to say. I'll watch a bit of CNN.

I might even tap into a bit of Fox. I might also watch some YouTube channels and what Piers Morgan has to say. And I like to spread the net really, really wide when it comes to media. I love the different perspectives. I have a sister, um, who lives in America. She lives in Michigan state and she's married to a I mean, they love Trump.

They love him. They really do. They think he is great. I can understand from my sister's perspective. 

You know, I've, I've struggled because I've lived in a very conservative state and like you, I like to listen to liberal. I like to listen to conservative. Most people think that New York and California are the majority of America.

When in reality, it's not. States like Michigan, where my daughter lives in Michigan, it's states like Michigan and Texas and Ohio and Indiana Who may not subscribe to such a liberal mindset. 

You think about it. You've got someone who's an entrepreneur Yes, he's inherited his dad's business, but he's done pretty well You know, you could have blown that whole fortune and being you know, so he must have had Some brain cells there to, to continue with that.

And he's become really famous and done all these things. He understands business and negotiation, which makes him good. Also what he's done with NATO and things like that. You know, there's, there's certain things, you know, where he's, Forcing other countries to pay their dues. There's nothing wrong with that.

That's the sort of thing that any,  you would do it as a business. And I would do it as a business. Basic things that I suppose it needed an entrepreneur, someone with a business head to go, well, that is a rubbish deal. Let's do this. So there were,  It makes sense. 

So I, I believe you are correct in what Trump did for the economy.

I also think that you're right as a business person, you do want someone ruthless, you do want someone that's going to be able to protect your interest. I think that for me, the problem comes in when you. Um,  when you do it at the expense of all Americans  and some of our allies.  And I think, you know, it's almost, you know, my big thing is make it more about the country, not about you. 

Most people, most sensible people are actually in the middle. 

I believe in balance.  Um,  probably most military people do. Um, but at the same time, I believe wisdom demands that I'm not going to blindly follow anyone if I think it's not in the best interest of the country. You know, and I'm not trying to be naive or altruistic, but you know, you want to be on the right side of it.

And when it comes to, you know, trunch racial comments or sexist comments, if you ask me what I heard and what I saw, I'm going to tell you 

what's next for gene folks.  

So like you, I've had a podcast, I've been running for, uh, for about four years and I'd be honored to have you a guest on that program. 

Just for our, for our viewers, what's the podcast?

Where can I find it?  

It's on YouTube and  it's also on Apple, Spotify, iHeartRadio, you know, all the, all the normal channels. And then also we're kicking off a clothing line. It's called Ocean. Um, there is an entrepreneur spirit in me that's always doing that. And then my, uh, consulting firm, still capital raising for people and trying to help small businesses, you know, take on Goliath.

I love the name Ocean. I love that.  All right, Gene, thank you so much, and I'll see you on your podcast.  

Okay. Definitely. You will. Thank you guys so much. Thank 

you.